base running and how/when to get faster - Triathlon Week

02-21-2007, 02:48 AM

I've been running consisting since Dec, off and on since early fall of last
year.

2 1/2 weeks ago, I did 16 miles on my long slow run. Apparently I stepped
on too many gum balls and slightly sprained my foot. X-rays and doc said it
was not fractured and to take a week off and start back slowly.

I ran 8 miles my first time out still slow = 10:30 pace. Today, I wanted to
run but not as far so I picked the pace up and ran 4 miles at a 9:00 pace -
a huge improvement for me but I was sucking wind with a ending HR of 87% -
90% I maybe could have gone another mile at that poace but that would be
it.

My question is this, my first triathlons ever are coming up this summer and
I want to run faster than a 10 min pace in a sprint tri with a 5k run.

To run faster for 5k or 10k, do I continue to build my base and gradually
increase speed trying to maintain the same HR?

OR

Do I continue base training and add in some faster than pace runs like
today's and gradually work up distance then lower distance and increase
pace - and work that ladder up?

02-21-2007, 02:48 AM

Paul wrote:
> I've been running consisting since Dec, off and on since early fall of last
> year.
>
> 2 1/2 weeks ago, I did 16 miles on my long slow run. Apparently I stepped
> on too many gum balls and slightly sprained my foot. X-rays and doc said it
> was not fractured and to take a week off and start back slowly.
>
> I ran 8 miles my first time out still slow = 10:30 pace. Today, I wanted to
> run but not as far so I picked the pace up and ran 4 miles at a 9:00 pace -
> a huge improvement for me but I was sucking wind with a ending HR of 87% -
> 90% I maybe could have gone another mile at that poace but that would be
> it.
>
> My question is this, my first triathlons ever are coming up this summer and
> I want to run faster than a 10 min pace in a sprint tri with a 5k run.
>
> To run faster for 5k or 10k, do I continue to build my base and gradually
> increase speed trying to maintain the same HR?
>
> OR
>
> Do I continue base training and add in some faster than pace runs like
> today's and gradually work up distance then lower distance and increase
> pace - and work that ladder up?
>
>

This seems to be the same question that you asked last week? Is it? I
would say that when you run out of improvement with your low heart rate
drills, then switch to faster drills that increase your heart rate. And
then you could incorporate drills that teach you how to increase foot
turn over.

*** When increasing foot speed make sure your stride doesn't get wider
(longer), as that can lead to other biomechanical problems.

For instance, you could work on drills such as picking your foot up a
little bit towards your bum (some say kicking your bum) and let gravity
drop your foot back down can help you increase foot turn over (which is
what makes you faster). Some people work on picking their knee up during
some drills to balance the last drill. Try 6 X 30second drills with a
minute or 2 recovery between drills or what ever you need to drop your
heart rate below your lactate threshold. Keep this run separate from
your low heart rate recovery run, and your long slow run. My own coaches
have stated to not do hill work in the same day/week as hill work is its
own drill.

I find that my legs are like pendulums. I like to let there be freedom
below the knees and then i allow my feet to kick out forward from the
knee, loose and quickly, no strain, no effort, but this gets my feet
back quick so that I can kick forward again. Please note this is not a
kick like you are kicking a football or soccer ball. There should be no
weight, no effort, etc, it is like a pendulum has pulled your foot back
only there isn't that backward movement) and then your leg releases and
goes forward to balance this effort out and your body meets your foot on
the ground and you kick out again.

Although this last method works for me, I have never seen this method
anywhere else and I have never been accused of being fast.

How many gum balls is too many? My friend stepped on a lipstick once,
during a race and sprained the bottom of his foot.

02-22-2007, 03:46 AM

"Triathlete" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:ABQCh.1074815$5R2.630065@pd7urf3no...
> Paul wrote:
>> I've been running consisting since Dec, off and on since early fall of
>> last year.
>>
>> 2 1/2 weeks ago, I did 16 miles on my long slow run. Apparently I
>> stepped on too many gum balls and slightly sprained my foot. X-rays and
>> doc said it was not fractured and to take a week off and start back
>> slowly.
>>
>> I ran 8 miles my first time out still slow = 10:30 pace. Today, I wanted
>> to run but not as far so I picked the pace up and ran 4 miles at a 9:00
>> pace - a huge improvement for me but I was sucking wind with a ending HR
>> of 87% - 90% I maybe could have gone another mile at that poace but that
>> would be it.
>>
>> My question is this, my first triathlons ever are coming up this summer
>> and I want to run faster than a 10 min pace in a sprint tri with a 5k
>> run.
>>
>> To run faster for 5k or 10k, do I continue to build my base and gradually
>> increase speed trying to maintain the same HR?
>>
>> OR
>>
>> Do I continue base training and add in some faster than pace runs like
>> today's and gradually work up distance then lower distance and increase
>> pace - and work that ladder up?
>
> This seems to be the same question that you asked last week? Is it? I
> would say that when you run out of improvement with your low heart rate
> drills, then switch to faster drills that increase your heart rate. And
> then you could incorporate drills that teach you how to increase foot turn
> over.
>
> *** When increasing foot speed make sure your stride doesn't get wider
> (longer), as that can lead to other biomechanical problems.
>
> For instance, you could work on drills such as picking your foot up a
> little bit towards your bum (some say kicking your bum) and let gravity
> drop your foot back down can help you increase foot turn over (which is
> what makes you faster). Some people work on picking their knee up during
> some drills to balance the last drill. Try 6 X 30second drills with a
> minute or 2 recovery between drills or what ever you need to drop your
> heart rate below your lactate threshold. Keep this run separate from your
> low heart rate recovery run, and your long slow run. My own coaches have
> stated to not do hill work in the same day/week as hill work is its own
> drill.
>
> I find that my legs are like pendulums. I like to let there be freedom
> below the knees and then i allow my feet to kick out forward from the
> knee, loose and quickly, no strain, no effort, but this gets my feet back
> quick so that I can kick forward again. Please note this is not a kick
> like you are kicking a football or soccer ball. There should be no weight,
> no effort, etc, it is like a pendulum has pulled your foot back only there
> isn't that backward movement) and then your leg releases and goes forward
> to balance this effort out and your body meets your foot on the ground and
> you kick out again.
>
> Although this last method works for me, I have never seen this method
> anywhere else and I have never been accused of being fast.
>
> How many gum balls is too many? My friend stepped on a lipstick once,
> during a race and sprained the bottom of his foot.

Thanks tri - it's not the same question, at least I did not perceive it to
be the same. Regarding gum balls, there is a tree around here people call a
gum-bal tree - I don't know the proper name. It's seeds are 1.25 inch
diameter round prickly semi-solid seeds that only partially flatten when you
step on them. There are many around one area of the trail on which I run
and they are hard to avoid though I make every effort now.

So, what I gather you are saying it's time for some drill work. I remember
seeing my son's track team doing "butt-kicks" and "knee-raises" during
warm-up. I didn't know what it was for but now I do. It sounds a little
like the evolution or other new "injury-free" techniques I have heard of
where you let your foot strike mid-dole, absorb the shock with ankle and
knee bends, and pull your foot toward your bum to finish the stride.

Thanks again, as always, tri.

02-22-2007, 03:46 AM

Paul wrote:
> "Triathlete" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
> news:ABQCh.1074815$5R2.630065@pd7urf3no...
>> Paul wrote:
>>> I've been running consisting since Dec, off and on since early fall of
>>> last year.
>>>
>>> 2 1/2 weeks ago, I did 16 miles on my long slow run. Apparently I
>>> stepped on too many gum balls and slightly sprained my foot. X-rays and
>>> doc said it was not fractured and to take a week off and start back
>>> slowly.
>>>
>>> I ran 8 miles my first time out still slow = 10:30 pace. Today, I wanted
>>> to run but not as far so I picked the pace up and ran 4 miles at a 9:00
>>> pace - a huge improvement for me but I was sucking wind with a ending HR
>>> of 87% - 90% I maybe could have gone another mile at that poace but that
>>> would be it.
>>>
>>> My question is this, my first triathlons ever are coming up this summer
>>> and I want to run faster than a 10 min pace in a sprint tri with a 5k
>>> run.
>>>
>>> To run faster for 5k or 10k, do I continue to build my base and gradually
>>> increase speed trying to maintain the same HR?
>>>
>>> OR
>>>
>>> Do I continue base training and add in some faster than pace runs like
>>> today's and gradually work up distance then lower distance and increase
>>> pace - and work that ladder up?
>> This seems to be the same question that you asked last week? Is it? I
>> would say that when you run out of improvement with your low heart rate
>> drills, then switch to faster drills that increase your heart rate. And
>> then you could incorporate drills that teach you how to increase foot turn
>> over.
>>
>> *** When increasing foot speed make sure your stride doesn't get wider
>> (longer), as that can lead to other biomechanical problems.
>>
>> For instance, you could work on drills such as picking your foot up a
>> little bit towards your bum (some say kicking your bum) and let gravity
>> drop your foot back down can help you increase foot turn over (which is
>> what makes you faster). Some people work on picking their knee up during
>> some drills to balance the last drill. Try 6 X 30second drills with a
>> minute or 2 recovery between drills or what ever you need to drop your
>> heart rate below your lactate threshold. Keep this run separate from your
>> low heart rate recovery run, and your long slow run. My own coaches have
>> stated to not do hill work in the same day/week as hill work is its own
>> drill.
>>
>> I find that my legs are like pendulums. I like to let there be freedom
>> below the knees and then i allow my feet to kick out forward from the
>> knee, loose and quickly, no strain, no effort, but this gets my feet back
>> quick so that I can kick forward again. Please note this is not a kick
>> like you are kicking a football or soccer ball. There should be no weight,
>> no effort, etc, it is like a pendulum has pulled your foot back only there
>> isn't that backward movement) and then your leg releases and goes forward
>> to balance this effort out and your body meets your foot on the ground and
>> you kick out again.
>>
>> Although this last method works for me, I have never seen this method
>> anywhere else and I have never been accused of being fast.
>>
>> How many gum balls is too many? My friend stepped on a lipstick once,
>> during a race and sprained the bottom of his foot.
>
> Thanks tri - it's not the same question, at least I did not perceive it to
> be the same. Regarding gum balls, there is a tree around here people call a
> gum-bal tree - I don't know the proper name. It's seeds are 1.25 inch
> diameter round prickly semi-solid seeds that only partially flatten when you
> step on them. There are many around one area of the trail on which I run
> and they are hard to avoid though I make every effort now.
>
> So, what I gather you are saying it's time for some drill work. I remember
> seeing my son's track team doing "butt-kicks" and "knee-raises" during
> warm-up. I didn't know what it was for but now I do. It sounds a little
> like the evolution or other new "injury-free" techniques I have heard of
> where you let your foot strike mid-dole, absorb the shock with ankle and
> knee bends, and pull your foot toward your bum to finish the stride.
>
> Thanks again, as always, tri.

You are welcome, Paul.
I felt pretty bad about your foot last week, so I am pleased to see you
here posting about speed. Have you heard of chi running? A few of my
friends are into that. I think this will be one of the next books that I
read.

I had a really bad pain in my own a** for about 3-5 weeks. I am not sure
if it is from my bike seat or from doing a stretch while cold. It seems
that when I am stretching lately, my muscles are freezing from the
outside temperature. I tend to run when it is cold and rainy or snowy,
and ride when it is sunny (but still cold out, and possibly lightly
rainy). Hot (ice) packs are my closest friends.

I have been rebelling lately against myself and Gordo's book/advice.
However, I realized last week that I need to do this in order to step it
up. If I had stayed the same in my safety/comfort zone, I wouldn't have
grown.

Good luck and training.

02-22-2007, 03:46 AM

"Triathlete" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:Q12Dh.1082393$5R2.178204@pd7urf3no...
> Paul wrote:
>> "Triathlete" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
>> news:ABQCh.1074815$5R2.630065@pd7urf3no...
>>> Paul wrote:
>>>> I've been running consisting since Dec, off and on since early fall of
>>>> last year.
>>>>
>>>> 2 1/2 weeks ago, I did 16 miles on my long slow run. Apparently I
>>>> stepped on too many gum balls and slightly sprained my foot. X-rays
>>>> and doc said it was not fractured and to take a week off and start back
>>>> slowly.
>>>>
>>>> I ran 8 miles my first time out still slow = 10:30 pace. Today, I
>>>> wanted to run but not as far so I picked the pace up and ran 4 miles at
>>>> a 9:00 pace - a huge improvement for me but I was sucking wind with a
>>>> ending HR of 87% - 90% I maybe could have gone another mile at that
>>>> poace but that would be it.
>>>>
>>>> My question is this, my first triathlons ever are coming up this summer
>>>> and I want to run faster than a 10 min pace in a sprint tri with a 5k
>>>> run.
>>>>
>>>> To run faster for 5k or 10k, do I continue to build my base and
>>>> gradually increase speed trying to maintain the same HR?
>>>>
>>>> OR
>>>>
>>>> Do I continue base training and add in some faster than pace runs like
>>>> today's and gradually work up distance then lower distance and increase
>>>> pace - and work that ladder up?
>>> This seems to be the same question that you asked last week? Is it? I
>>> would say that when you run out of improvement with your low heart rate
>>> drills, then switch to faster drills that increase your heart rate. And
>>> then you could incorporate drills that teach you how to increase foot
>>> turn over.
>>>
>>> *** When increasing foot speed make sure your stride doesn't get wider
>>> (longer), as that can lead to other biomechanical problems.
>>>
>>> For instance, you could work on drills such as picking your foot up a
>>> little bit towards your bum (some say kicking your bum) and let gravity
>>> drop your foot back down can help you increase foot turn over (which is
>>> what makes you faster). Some people work on picking their knee up during
>>> some drills to balance the last drill. Try 6 X 30second drills with a
>>> minute or 2 recovery between drills or what ever you need to drop your
>>> heart rate below your lactate threshold. Keep this run separate from
>>> your low heart rate recovery run, and your long slow run. My own coaches
>>> have stated to not do hill work in the same day/week as hill work is its
>>> own drill.
>>>
>>> I find that my legs are like pendulums. I like to let there be freedom
>>> below the knees and then i allow my feet to kick out forward from the
>>> knee, loose and quickly, no strain, no effort, but this gets my feet
>>> back quick so that I can kick forward again. Please note this is not a
>>> kick like you are kicking a football or soccer ball. There should be no
>>> weight, no effort, etc, it is like a pendulum has pulled your foot back
>>> only there isn't that backward movement) and then your leg releases and
>>> goes forward to balance this effort out and your body meets your foot on
>>> the ground and you kick out again.
>>>
>>> Although this last method works for me, I have never seen this method
>>> anywhere else and I have never been accused of being fast.
>>>
>>> How many gum balls is too many? My friend stepped on a lipstick once,
>>> during a race and sprained the bottom of his foot.
>>
>> Thanks tri - it's not the same question, at least I did not perceive it
>> to be the same. Regarding gum balls, there is a tree around here people
>> call a gum-bal tree - I don't know the proper name. It's seeds are 1.25
>> inch diameter round prickly semi-solid seeds that only partially flatten
>> when you step on them. There are many around one area of the trail on
>> which I run and they are hard to avoid though I make every effort now.
>>
>> So, what I gather you are saying it's time for some drill work. I
>> remember seeing my son's track team doing "butt-kicks" and "knee-raises"
>> during warm-up. I didn't know what it was for but now I do. It sounds a
>> little like the evolution or other new "injury-free" techniques I have
>> heard of where you let your foot strike mid-dole, absorb the shock with
>> ankle and knee bends, and pull your foot toward your bum to finish the
>> stride.
>>
>> Thanks again, as always, tri.
>
>
> You are welcome, Paul.
> I felt pretty bad about your foot last week, so I am pleased to see you
> here posting about speed. Have you heard of chi running? A few of my
> friends are into that. I think this will be one of the next books that I
> read.
>
> I had a really bad pain in my own a** for about 3-5 weeks. I am not sure
> if it is from my bike seat or from doing a stretch while cold. It seems
> that when I am stretching lately, my muscles are freezing from the outside
> temperature. I tend to run when it is cold and rainy or snowy, and ride
> when it is sunny (but still cold out, and possibly lightly rainy). Hot
> (ice) packs are my closest friends.
>
> I have been rebelling lately against myself and Gordo's book/advice.
> However, I realized last week that I need to do this in order to step it
> up. If I had stayed the same in my safety/comfort zone, I wouldn't have
> grown.
>
> Good luck and training.

Thanks and I have looked into chi running. "Pose tech" offers a lot of the
same things and I have viewed his DVD ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. Basicially
both have you:
- leaning slightly forward
- landing on your mid-sole
- bringing your heel close to your bum before rotate/circle it back to
landing

They claim to be "injury-proof" but I am learning that listening to my body
and throttling my ego is more helpful then most else so far.

I am going to take your advice about doing some drills you mentioned
earlier.

02-25-2007, 02:15 AM

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] wrote:

> Regarding gum balls, there is a tree around here people call a gum-bal
> tree - I don't know the proper name. It's seeds are 1.25 inch
> diameter round prickly semi-solid seeds that only partially flatten
> when you step on them. There are many around one area of the trail on
> which I run and they are hard to avoid though I make every effort now.
>

Must be these:
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

--
Phil M.

02-26-2007, 11:51 PM

"Phil M." <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:Xns98E1F13045C6Eseilogramp@216.77.188.18...
> [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] wrote:
>
>> Regarding gum balls, there is a tree around here people call a gum-bal
>> tree - I don't know the proper name. It's seeds are 1.25 inch
>> diameter round prickly semi-solid seeds that only partially flatten
>> when you step on them. There are many around one area of the trail on
>> which I run and they are hard to avoid though I make every effort now.
>>
>
>
> Must be these:
> [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
>
> --
> Phil M.

Yep! they were all over the trail on which I run sever weeks ago. Now most
squashed but can still be hazardous.