Re: Tri Wheels - Triathlon Week

08-10-2006, 12:18 AM

"cg" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:1155002498.238371.228190@m79g2000cwm.googlegr oups.com...
>
> Funny, you wrote this because I was going to post and ask what people
> that about Zipps. Does anyone have a reason for why I would get 404's
> or 606's? Why do you want a three spoked wheel? More specifically,
> why choose that over Zipp wheels?
>
> Should I be averaging 25 mph before I spend the money on Zipps? or is
> that just for 3 spoked wheels?
>
> cg
>
As stated, Hed 3s are the most aero non-disc wheel. Hence why Hed-3 up
front - disc back is the 'most-aero' set-up. IIRC they could be cheaper
than Zipps too! All deep-rim wheels have handling problems in gusty winds.

I think 404s are a bit lighter than the Hed. This might mitigate their use
when going slower. (aero advantage not sufficient to beat weight). I have
no opinion on Zipps in particular. You may wish to avoid wheels with carbon
braking surfaces. They really don't work very well.

There are lots of wheels that are 'pretty aero' other than Zipp. Mavic,
Shimano, Bontrager, Rolf, Corima, etc etc. All claims about weight and
drag are marketing, as I'm sure you know!

'Reduced spoke count' wheels have a poor reputation for reliability. A
good bike shop will be able to build you a good set of wheels (say 24/28/32
aero spokes on Dura Ace hubs with a Velocity Deep V rim) for a fraction of
what the 'boutique' guys charge. Not so glamourous, but made to suit you
(and your weight). You can also have a couple of pairs so you're sure to
get to the start line!

Apologies for rambling!

Skippy
E&OE

08-10-2006, 12:18 AM

"Tom Henderson" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:Xns98193800342A9TomH4thBellSouthnet@216.77.18 8.18...
> "Skippy" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in
> news:44d83e1f$0$18490$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].net:
>
>> A
>> good bike shop will be able to build you a good set of wheels (say
>> 24/28/32 aero spokes on Dura Ace hubs with a Velocity Deep V rim) for
>> a fraction of what the 'boutique' guys charge. Not so glamourous, but
>> made to suit you (and your weight).
>
> Funny this should come up. I'm going later this week to pick up a set of
> velocity deep Vs built by my LBS. I'm about 250lbs, and this was what they
> recommended for me. I kept breaking spokes on my Spinergy Spox wheels
> right
> where the nipple meets the hub.

Congratulations! They should last better, handle better and be faster,
probably. Even Sora hubs are better quality by the way! A lot of pairs of
Spox ended up on eBay ;-)

Skippy
E&OE

08-10-2006, 12:18 AM

"Skippy" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in
news:44d83e1f$0$18490$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].net:

> A
> good bike shop will be able to build you a good set of wheels (say
> 24/28/32 aero spokes on Dura Ace hubs with a Velocity Deep V rim) for
> a fraction of what the 'boutique' guys charge. Not so glamourous, but
> made to suit you (and your weight).

Funny this should come up. I'm going later this week to pick up a set of
velocity deep Vs built by my LBS. I'm about 250lbs, and this was what they
recommended for me. I kept breaking spokes on my Spinergy Spox wheels right
where the nipple meets the hub.

08-10-2006, 12:19 AM

Yeah, HED 3's are a little cheaper than the Zipp 404's. I am not
terribly concerned about being pushed around (unless its really windy)
as I weigh 180. Are HED 3's something to ride on regularly? That may
be the only other advantage to Zipp's in that I could train and ride on
them.

It also looks like the 2006 HED's now also have a carbon braking
surface. Although I was readng that late last night and may have
misunderstood. because it also mentioned aluminum.

08-10-2006, 12:19 AM

"cg" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:1155130514.736730.47260@m73g2000cwd.googlegro ups.com...
>
> Yeah, HED 3's are a little cheaper than the Zipp 404's. I am not
> terribly concerned about being pushed around (unless its really windy)
> as I weigh 180. Are HED 3's something to ride on regularly? That may
> be the only other advantage to Zipp's in that I could train and ride on
> them.
>
> It also looks like the 2006 HED's now also have a carbon braking
> surface. Although I was readng that late last night and may have
> misunderstood. because it also mentioned aluminum.
>

Neither 404s nor Hed 3s are really training wheels. In my humble opinion,
anything with less than 28 spokes up front/ 32 rear should be considered a
race wheel, especially as you're not in the race-whippet category. I'm
about 160lbs and wouldn't do mileage on 404s.

Hed 3s are available with either Al or carbon rims. The carbon ones cost
more, are lighter and are tubular tyre only.

If it was my money (and I was fast enough to really justify it) I'd go with
some deep-rim handbuilt wheels for training /wind / bad weather*, then get a
disc, then get a tri-spoke up front. Ideally I'd get a sponsor to pay for
them. It's podium place kit, after all!

*wet weather will wear your rims out a lot quicker... gets expensive. Al
braking surfaces are kinda nice too.

Skippy
E&OE

08-10-2006, 12:19 AM

> It also looks like the 2006 HED's now also have a carbon braking
> surface. Although I was readng that late last night and may have
> misunderstood. because it also mentioned aluminum.

Though someone was saying that carbon brake surface doesn't brake as well,
how often do you brake during a triathlon? If you're spending that kind of
dough anyway go for the all carbon lighter weight version....

George

08-10-2006, 12:19 AM

"George Ball" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:6_oCg.64506$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].com. ..
>> It also looks like the 2006 HED's now also have a carbon braking
>> surface. Although I was readng that late last night and may have
>> misunderstood. because it also mentioned aluminum.
>
> Though someone was saying that carbon brake surface doesn't brake as well,
> how often do you brake during a triathlon? If you're spending that kind
> of dough anyway go for the all carbon lighter weight version....
>
> George
>

You'll need to brake at least once during a race. When you do brake ,
you'll go faster if you can brake more controllably, later. If you watched
the Athens Olympic race, you'll know that braking is a necessary part of
riding a bike! Most triathletes aren't as good bike handlers as pro bike
racers, who use carbon rims a lot (although it's not unknown for them to
crash as a result of not being able to brake well).

Carbon rims are mostly tubulars. Not many people these days are good at
mending those on the road.

Yes, carbon rims are a little bit lighter. by the same token clinchers have
slightly lower rolling resistance than tubs. Go to the toilet before a
race, it makes more difference. than either ;-)

Skippy
E&OE

08-10-2006, 05:28 PM

Skippy wrote:
>
> "George Ball" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
> news:6_oCg.64506$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].com. ..
> >> It also looks like the 2006 HED's now also have a carbon braking
> >> surface. Although I was readng that late last night and may have
> >> misunderstood. because it also mentioned aluminum.
> >
> > Though someone was saying that carbon brake surface doesn't brake as well,
> > how often do you brake during a triathlon? If you're spending that kind
> > of dough anyway go for the all carbon lighter weight version....
> >
> > George
> >
>
> You'll need to brake at least once during a race. When you do brake ,
> you'll go faster if you can brake more controllably, later. If you watched
> the Athens Olympic race, you'll know that braking is a necessary part of
> riding a bike! Most triathletes aren't as good bike handlers as pro bike
> racers, who use carbon rims a lot (although it's not unknown for them to
> crash as a result of not being able to brake well).
>
> Carbon rims are mostly tubulars. Not many people these days are good at
> mending those on the road.

And even deep carbon rims that are clinchers can be an absolute bugger
to try to get the tyres off during a race. Plus 80mm stem tubes are hard
to come by.

> Yes, carbon rims are a little bit lighter. by the same token clinchers have
> slightly lower rolling resistance than tubs. Go to the toilet before a
> race, it makes more difference. than either ;-)

I thought the rolling resistances of clinchers and tubes are so much
reduced in recent times that it's not a significant difference - any
expert opinions?

Tam

08-11-2006, 12:28 AM

"Tamyka Bell" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].au> wrote in message
news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].au...
> Skippy wrote:
>>
>> "George Ball" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
>> news:6_oCg.64506$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].com. ..
>> >> It also looks like the 2006 HED's now also have a carbon braking
>> >> surface. Although I was readng that late last night and may have
>> >> misunderstood. because it also mentioned aluminum.
>> >
>> > Though someone was saying that carbon brake surface doesn't brake as
>> > well,
>> > how often do you brake during a triathlon? If you're spending that
>> > kind
>> > of dough anyway go for the all carbon lighter weight version....
>> >
>> > George
>> >
>>
>> You'll need to brake at least once during a race. When you do brake ,
>> you'll go faster if you can brake more controllably, later. If you
>> watched
>> the Athens Olympic race, you'll know that braking is a necessary part of
>> riding a bike! Most triathletes aren't as good bike handlers as pro bike
>> racers, who use carbon rims a lot (although it's not unknown for them to
>> crash as a result of not being able to brake well).
>>
>> Carbon rims are mostly tubulars. Not many people these days are good at
>> mending those on the road.
>
> And even deep carbon rims that are clinchers can be an absolute bugger
> to try to get the tyres off during a race. Plus 80mm stem tubes are hard
> to come by.

So true. Long stems ( and extenders) are a pain. Tight beads on rims is
mostly down to the rim manufacturers making the rim edge a tiny bit too
large.. For example, Bontrager rims are the nemesis of my thumbs!

>
>> Yes, carbon rims are a little bit lighter. by the same token clinchers
>> have
>> slightly lower rolling resistance than tubs. Go to the toilet before a
>> race, it makes more difference. than either ;-)
>
> I thought the rolling resistances of clinchers and tubes are so much
> reduced in recent times that it's not a significant difference - any
> expert opinions?
>
> Tam

My point was that there's nothing in it. Clinchers do have slightly lower
rolling resistance than tubs. not much though. Pro bike racers use either,
but don't have to do their own repairs. This has been talked to death on
rec.bicycles.tech

Skippy
E&OE

08-11-2006, 09:09 AM

Skippy wrote:
> "cg" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
> news:1155130514.736730.47260@m73g2000cwd.googlegro ups.com...
> >
> > Yeah, HED 3's are a little cheaper than the Zipp 404's. I am not
> > terribly concerned about being pushed around (unless its really windy)
> > as I weigh 180. Are HED 3's something to ride on regularly? That may
> > be the only other advantage to Zipp's in that I could train and ride on
> > them.
> >
> > It also looks like the 2006 HED's now also have a carbon braking
> > surface. Although I was readng that late last night and may have
> > misunderstood. because it also mentioned aluminum.
> >
>
> Neither 404s nor Hed 3s are really training wheels. In my humble opinion,
> anything with less than 28 spokes up front/ 32 rear should be considered a
> race wheel, especially as you're not in the race-whippet category. I'm
> about 160lbs and wouldn't do mileage on 404s.
>
> Hed 3s are available with either Al or carbon rims. The carbon ones cost
> more, are lighter and are tubular tyre only.
>
> If it was my money (and I was fast enough to really justify it) I'd go with
> some deep-rim handbuilt wheels for training /wind / bad weather*, then get a
> disc, then get a tri-spoke up front. Ideally I'd get a sponsor to pay for
> them. It's podium place kit, after all!
>
> *wet weather will wear your rims out a lot quicker... gets expensive. Al
> braking surfaces are kinda nice too.
>
> Skippy
> E&OE

OK, this sounds like the kind of advice I'm really looking for. When
you say "deep-rim handbuilt wheels," can you give me some options of
which wheels to look into?

08-11-2006, 09:58 AM

[snip]
>
> OK, this sounds like the kind of advice I'm really looking for. When
> you say "deep-rim handbuilt wheels," can you give me some options of
> which wheels to look into?
>

Perhaps the best thing to do is find a good local shop. They'll be able to
advise better than me. Also good to get the guy who's doing the building on
your side. Biscuits can help.

My suggestions... get Campag or Shimano hubs to match what you've got on
the bike. If it's shimano, get Ultegra, or Dura Ace if you're feeling
flush. The newer '10 speed' front hubs can be built up radially if that
appeals. These hubs are superior to the hubs used in 'factory' wheels.

Spokes will be whatever the shop likes building with. Sapim CX-Rays are
claimed to be the best, but DT and others make nice 'aero' spokes that
aren't quite so expensive.

Rims... A bit more limited. Velocity get a good reaction usually. The Deep
V is the deepest they do. This is something to ask about in the shop
though.

Number of spokes is dependant on your weight. I've got some wheels with 28
front 32 rear and they're perfectly true after 3 years use. I weigh 155lbs.
I could probably risk going 24/28.

If you still fancy some carbon, you can always drop a disc wheel in the back
at a later date. Maybe have something daring up front like a 20 spoke
version of the above!

I hope that helps. The wheel builder will be able to talk you through all
the 1000's of permutations better than I.

Skippy
E&OE