Does bike improvement take longer? - Triathlon Week

09-25-2004, 08:45 AM

Hello,

Where running is concerned, the more I train, the faster I get with
seemingly less effort.

Where swimming is concerned, the more I go to the pool and swim +
concentrate on technique, the better I can feel my technique getting, and
the faster / more efficient I seem to get.

Where the bike is concerned though, I try to put the miles in and it's still
bloody hard work!! This is partly because I still haven't got it fitted
perfectly, and partly because I'm still getting used to dealing with the
hills in my area on a double chainset. My 'average' ride on an undulating
course is about 50km at an average of 30kph, but I do rides between 20-70km.
I also do occasional hill work when I don't have time for a full ride. I'm
training for a sprint tri.

I have a running and swimming background, so I expected those to be a little
easier, but I've been banging away at the bike for a couple of months, and
it's not seeming to get any easier.

Any advice very much appreciated!!

Dave

09-25-2004, 09:39 AM

Several things.

First, fit is VERY important. I'd strongly recommend you to head to a
shop and pay for a measured fitting - something like the Fit Kit or
similar systems. You'd be amazed how much difference it can make. It
will probably feel funny for a while, but you'll get used to it and it
will likely help a lot.

Second, honestly, you don't need a triple unless you're 250 lbs or going
up Alp D'heuz. If you want easier gears, look for something like FSA's
Compact crankset - this is what Tyler Hamilton uses on mountain stages.
It has smaller tooth chainrings for additional help climbing. Still, to
climb better, you need to improve your strength, and simply spinning
your way up is not the way to do this. There are a number of resources
on the web that can help you with this one.

Third, how do you ride? Do you mainly ride alone or with a group? If
it's a group, how speedy are they?
If you ride by yourself, your effort is often much lower than you would
put out with a faster group. You will likely ride at a nice, comfortable
pace, and that makes it hard to get much improvement. Like with swimming
and running, unless you work on going faster, you probably won't go much
faster. (My wife is in this boat. She's reluctant to try and keep up
with others, so she rides by herself, and then gets frustrated that she
can't get faster!) My recommendation is to find a group that you can
ride with that will challenge you. Most areas have recreational riding
clubs with free group rides open to the public. Within these, there are
usually different packs that go out at various paces. Find one that's
probably a bit faster than you are, and do your best to stay with them
as long as you can. When you finally get dropped, catch up at the water
stop and go do it again. After a while, you should find it easier and
easier to keep up.

Fourth, how often do you ride? You mention distances, but not frequency.
Like running, you need both a sufficient base as well as enough weekly
miles put in if you want to see much improvement. Personally, I find
that I need to do at least 160km (100 mi) a week to really start to feel
OK.

Remember that you are new to this. A few months does not give you much
time to develop any sort of base, or proper leg strength. It will take
time. Still, 30kph average is far from slow, especially for a new rider.

Lastly, while it may not seem like it, technique is very important for
cycling as well. There are a lot of little things to learn, such as how
to pedal smoothly, how (and when) to stand up, efficient climbing,
aerodynamic positioning, etc. I've been riding for years and I'm still
amazed how much I learn from riding with more experienced cyclists!

Dave Hallsworth wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Where running is concerned, the more I train, the faster I get with
> seemingly less effort.
>
> Where swimming is concerned, the more I go to the pool and swim +
> concentrate on technique, the better I can feel my technique getting, and
> the faster / more efficient I seem to get.
>
> Where the bike is concerned though, I try to put the miles in and it's still
> bloody hard work!! This is partly because I still haven't got it fitted
> perfectly, and partly because I'm still getting used to dealing with the
> hills in my area on a double chainset. My 'average' ride on an undulating
> course is about 50km at an average of 30kph, but I do rides between 20-70km.
> I also do occasional hill work when I don't have time for a full ride. I'm
> training for a sprint tri.
>
> I have a running and swimming background, so I expected those to be a little
> easier, but I've been banging away at the bike for a couple of months, and
> it's not seeming to get any easier.
>
> Any advice very much appreciated!!
>
> Dave

09-25-2004, 10:01 AM

Firstly, thanks for the reply.

> First, fit is VERY important. I'd strongly recommend you to head to a
> shop and pay for a measured fitting - something like the Fit Kit or
> similar systems. You'd be amazed how much difference it can make. It
> will probably feel funny for a while, but you'll get used to it and it
> will likely help a lot.

I may well do - hopefully my local shop will do this.

> Second, honestly, you don't need a triple unless you're 250 lbs or going
> up Alp D'heuz. If you want easier gears, look for something like FSA's
> Compact crankset - this is what Tyler Hamilton uses on mountain stages.
> It has smaller tooth chainrings for additional help climbing. Still, to
> climb better, you need to improve your strength, and simply spinning
> your way up is not the way to do this. There are a number of resources
> on the web that can help you with this one.

Although I complain, I don't think I need a tripple. I'm just used to
low-gearing on my MTB, and slowly coming round to the idea that going
up-hill on a road bike simply takes more effort (but is consequently faster)

> Third, how do you ride? Do you mainly ride alone or with a group?

<snip - thanks for the advice>

I ride on my own at the minute. There's a local tri-club not a mile from
where I live. The catch-22 is that I want to improve before I join, but
probably won't UNTIL I join. I know some friends cycle, but being rubbish
at it in front of them is worse than being in the lower leagues of a club.
I had the same quandry before I joined a running club and was proven to be
very far off the mark when it came to my expectations of being the worst
there!! I'll e-mail them now!!

> Fourth, how often do you ride?

At the minute, usually 2-3 times a week, but I know I have to increase this.
I currently do 5 runs ('my sport'), 2 swims and 3 bikes - I should probably
swap a run for a bike, though my runs are in the morning and for some reason
I have a 'cycling-in-the-morning aversion'

> Remember that you are new to this. A few months does not give you much
> time to develop any sort of base, or proper leg strength. It will take
> time. Still, 30kph average is far from slow, especially for a new rider.
>
> Lastly, while it may not seem like it, technique is very important for
> cycling as well. There are a lot of little things to learn, such as how
> to pedal smoothly, how (and when) to stand up, efficient climbing,
> aerodynamic positioning, etc. I've been riding for years and I'm still
> amazed how much I learn from riding with more experienced cyclists!

Another reason to join the club!!

Thanks very much!!
Dave

09-25-2004, 10:19 AM

Remember that you will usually make your best improvements in your
weakest leg. Put in some more miles riding, especially with a speedier
group. (Think of it this way - would you rather go slower with them on a
training ride, or slower in a race? <G>)
I've been riding with a local group of hammerheads several times a week
for some years now. Most of the time, I struggled to keep up, and prayed
that I just wouldn't be last. Finally I've gotten to where I can respond
to the attacks and keep up with the leaders. Part of that came from
working on strength instead of spinning. Now I can ride in a harder gear
at a high cadence. This really helps on hills - I usually have several
easier gears left on a climb in case it kicks up sharply. Plus, the
extra power means that I don't get tired quite so quickly if I try and
accelerate!

Dave Hallsworth wrote:
>
> Firstly, thanks for the reply.
>
> > First, fit is VERY important. I'd strongly recommend you to head to a
> > shop and pay for a measured fitting - something like the Fit Kit or
> > similar systems. You'd be amazed how much difference it can make. It
> > will probably feel funny for a while, but you'll get used to it and it
> > will likely help a lot.
>
> I may well do - hopefully my local shop will do this.
>
> > Second, honestly, you don't need a triple unless you're 250 lbs or going
> > up Alp D'heuz. If you want easier gears, look for something like FSA's
> > Compact crankset - this is what Tyler Hamilton uses on mountain stages.
> > It has smaller tooth chainrings for additional help climbing. Still, to
> > climb better, you need to improve your strength, and simply spinning
> > your way up is not the way to do this. There are a number of resources
> > on the web that can help you with this one.
>
> Although I complain, I don't think I need a tripple. I'm just used to
> low-gearing on my MTB, and slowly coming round to the idea that going
> up-hill on a road bike simply takes more effort (but is consequently faster)
>
> > Third, how do you ride? Do you mainly ride alone or with a group?
>
> <snip - thanks for the advice>
>
> I ride on my own at the minute. There's a local tri-club not a mile from
> where I live. The catch-22 is that I want to improve before I join, but
> probably won't UNTIL I join. I know some friends cycle, but being rubbish
> at it in front of them is worse than being in the lower leagues of a club.
> I had the same quandry before I joined a running club and was proven to be
> very far off the mark when it came to my expectations of being the worst
> there!! I'll e-mail them now!!
>
> > Fourth, how often do you ride?
>
> At the minute, usually 2-3 times a week, but I know I have to increase this.
> I currently do 5 runs ('my sport'), 2 swims and 3 bikes - I should probably
> swap a run for a bike, though my runs are in the morning and for some reason
> I have a 'cycling-in-the-morning aversion'
>
> > Remember that you are new to this. A few months does not give you much
> > time to develop any sort of base, or proper leg strength. It will take
> > time. Still, 30kph average is far from slow, especially for a new rider.
> >
> > Lastly, while it may not seem like it, technique is very important for
> > cycling as well. There are a lot of little things to learn, such as how
> > to pedal smoothly, how (and when) to stand up, efficient climbing,
> > aerodynamic positioning, etc. I've been riding for years and I'm still
> > amazed how much I learn from riding with more experienced cyclists!
>
> Another reason to join the club!!
>
> Thanks very much!!
> Dave

09-25-2004, 10:26 AM

Makes a lot of sense. Too often I find myself in low gears and not having
many lower gears for the hills.

I e-mailed the tri-club!!

Cheers for the advice.
Dave

09-27-2004, 06:01 AM

"Dave Hallsworth" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:Dwf5d.829$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].net...
> Hello,
>
.....
>
> Where the bike is concerned though, I try to put the miles
> in and it's still
> bloody hard work!! This is partly because I still haven't
> got it fitted
....
> easier, but I've been banging away at the bike for a
> couple of months, and
> it's not seeming to get any easier.
>

The bike is hard work. It takes big base to lay the
foundation for your strengthening. It takes many hill
repeats to get you ready for speed work. And the monthly
improvements are in 1 KmPH increments with 3.5-6.5KmPH
improvement in one season being really good.

By the way - 30KmPH is not "slow". It's a great place to be
starting from.

-CF

09-27-2004, 10:39 AM

I'm sure the die hard road cyclist will laugh at this, but get into
spinning classes somewhere with a tough instructor and good
equiptment. I found that as a starting cyclist transitioning from
running only to triathlon, the spin class was a great intro to
cycling. I just finished my first race on a very hilly course and the
bike was the strongest leg. The class helps give you the motivation
to push yourself and if you live in a flat area its the closest thing
to hills you can get. Secondly, train with a heart rate monitor. I
took this habit from running to cycling and found it was hard to push
your legs up to a solid Zone 4/5a workout. It took a few months to
build the muscular endurance to get good threshold workouts. Then the
real gains started to happen.

09-27-2004, 02:53 PM

> I'm sure the die hard road cyclist will laugh at this, but get into
> spinning classes somewhere with a tough instructor and good
> equiptment.

Good idea, but I seem to have spent so much money on cycle kit, clothes,
etc, it seems silly not to get out and ride what I paid for!! I might
reconsider when the student loan cheque comes through!!

> Secondly, train with a heart rate monitor.

This is something I'm really considering. I never got one for running as I
would have a track session based on time, not effort, a tempo with people
faster than myself and a long run with people slower than myself, thus
negating the need for a HRM. However, now I'm doing more training on my
own, I might consider it. Any recommendations for a (cheap) HRM?

Cheers.

09-27-2004, 02:54 PM

> The bike is hard work. It takes big base to lay the foundation for your
> strengthening. It takes many hill repeats to get you ready for speed
> work.

I'm going to try to up my ride frequency, not individual ride length to
build a base. What do you recommend for hill repeats?

Cheers,
Dave

09-27-2004, 03:09 PM

One way to make cycling workouts more fun (and productive!) is to ride
with a group, especially one that is a bit faster than you. Most towns
have local cycling clubs that have a number of organized rides each
week. Find a faster group and try to hang on as long as you can! If you
get dropped, catch up when they stop and go out with them again.

Also, remember not to always ride hard. You also need to do recovery
rides, moderate rides, in addition to hard workouts.

Dave Hallsworth wrote:
>
> > The bike is hard work. It takes big base to lay the foundation for your
> > strengthening. It takes many hill repeats to get you ready for speed
> > work.
>
> I'm going to try to up my ride frequency, not individual ride length to
> build a base. What do you recommend for hill repeats?
>
> Cheers,
> Dave

09-27-2004, 09:30 PM

Any of the A model Polars are a good cheap way to get started with one. I
have the Polar A5 and have been happy with it. The cheapest Polar you can
find, for around $50, will give you a simple HR. For a few more bucks you
can add features like target zones, average HR (good for TT and performance
testing), calories burned, and lots of watch functions like lap timers and
computer down link features. They even have a few cycle models that
incorporate speed/distance data. Bottom line for any activity is to get
faster you need to do interval training at or above your lactate threshold
heart rate. Best way to get that is to put on a heart rate monitor and go
for an all out 60 minute time trial. Ride like your racing and you average
HR will be close to your LT. Then get some quality sprints, climbs, or
whatever gets your heartrate up to that number on your interval workouts.
That will make you faster and stronger on the hills. Easy into these kind
of workouts, too much too fast can lead to overuse injuries, start out with
10 minutes of total interval time with recovery breaks between 2 and 3 times
you interval time. Good 60 minute workout is 10-15 min warm-up, 2 minute
sprint with a 4 minute recovery (x5 repeats), with a 10-15 minute cool down.
Make you HR hit that LT value.

As for spinning classes, give it a try on a cold dark morning or a rainy
day. It offers the benefits of a hill workout, fixed gear training, and no
traffic or stop signs.

I just completed a triathlon on a very hilly course and made all my money
passing people on the uphills. Got to give the credit to heartrate training
and high resistance power cycling/spinning classes. I only ride 50-80 mile
a week. Averaging 20-21 MPH on the flat and getting faster ;-)

Best of luck.

"Dave Hallsworth" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:%4%5d.398$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].net...
> > I'm sure the die hard road cyclist will laugh at this, but get into
> > spinning classes somewhere with a tough instructor and good
> > equiptment.
>
> Good idea, but I seem to have spent so much money on cycle kit, clothes,
> etc, it seems silly not to get out and ride what I paid for!! I might
> reconsider when the student loan cheque comes through!!
>
> > Secondly, train with a heart rate monitor.
>
> This is something I'm really considering. I never got one for running as
I
> would have a track session based on time, not effort, a tempo with people
> faster than myself and a long run with people slower than myself, thus
> negating the need for a HRM. However, now I'm doing more training on my
> own, I might consider it. Any recommendations for a (cheap) HRM?
>
> Cheers.
>
>

09-28-2004, 01:37 AM

I just did the 'natural skills' test in the 'training bible', which I bought
following my other thread. I get scores of speed = 5 (excellent), endurance
= 3 (average), force (1) poor. I guess that would all tie into my problems
hill climbing. In which case, I think a few winter gym sessions are in
order - the book seems to have some good suggestions for programmes.

Cheers all.
Dave

09-29-2004, 11:05 AM

All my cycling training is based on heart rate zones and cadence.
This is true if I'm on the road or my CompuTrainer.

Be careful with the spin. Mix it up, don't do spin exclusively. If
you can, get on a trainer before spin.

Mark

"Dave Hallsworth" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message news:<%4%5d.398$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].net>...
> > I'm sure the die hard road cyclist will laugh at this, but get into
> > spinning classes somewhere with a tough instructor and good
> > equiptment.
>
> Good idea, but I seem to have spent so much money on cycle kit, clothes,
> etc, it seems silly not to get out and ride what I paid for!! I might
> reconsider when the student loan cheque comes through!!
>
> > Secondly, train with a heart rate monitor.
>
> This is something I'm really considering. I never got one for running as I
> would have a track session based on time, not effort, a tempo with people
> faster than myself and a long run with people slower than myself, thus
> negating the need for a HRM. However, now I'm doing more training on my
> own, I might consider it. Any recommendations for a (cheap) HRM?
>
> Cheers.