Ultra-Marathon Taper? - Triathlon Week

09-03-2004, 03:37 PM

I'm planning to do my first 50K Ultra this fall, and I was wondering
what makes the most sense for a taper. I'm doing the Milwaukee Marathon
on October 3 as a long training run, and then I have a choice of 3
different 50K races either 3, 4, or 5 weeks later. I'm trying to figure
out which makes the most sense in terms of tapering.

I'm just looking to finish the 50K and have fun with it, not set any
speed records.

My thought would be to do long runs of

26, 16, 9, 50K

26, 18, 15, 9, 50K

26, 10, 18, 15, 9, 50K

on the weekends, where 26 represents the Marathon and 50K represents the
Ultra.

The other factor is that the 3-week and 5-week times between races puts
me on trails and hilly courses, where I'm more comfortable, and the
4-week schedule puts me on asphalt and flats in Chicago.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

09-03-2004, 03:54 PM

Harold Buck wrote in message ...
>I'm planning to do my first 50K Ultra this fall, and I was wondering
>what makes the most sense for a taper. I'm doing the Milwaukee Marathon
>on October 3 as a long training run, and then I have a choice of 3
>different 50K races either 3, 4, or 5 weeks later. I'm trying to figure
>out which makes the most sense in terms of tapering.
>
>I'm just looking to finish the 50K and have fun with it, not set any
>speed records.
>
>My thought would be to do long runs of
>
>26, 16, 9, 50K
>
>26, 18, 15, 9, 50K
>
>26, 10, 18, 15, 9, 50K
>
>on the weekends, where 26 represents the Marathon and 50K represents the
>Ultra.
>
>The other factor is that the 3-week and 5-week times between races puts
>me on trails and hilly courses, where I'm more comfortable, and the
>4-week schedule puts me on asphalt and flats in Chicago.
>
>Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!
>
>--Harold Buck
>

Go for the 5 week gap, that way the deeper systems will have a better chance
to recover from the marathon. It can easily take longer than a month. Even
doing it just to finish you'd be better taking the extra rest. Definitely
go for the trail not the road version IMO; though it will take you longer,
trails are far more enjoyable than roads.

- Tony

09-03-2004, 04:19 PM

"Harold Buck" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].giganews.com...
> I'm planning to do my first 50K Ultra this fall, and I was wondering
> what makes the most sense for a taper. I'm doing the Milwaukee
> Marathon
> on October 3 as a long training run, and then I have a choice of 3
> different 50K races either 3, 4, or 5 weeks later. I'm trying to
> figure
> out which makes the most sense in terms of tapering.

I would suggest the 50k three weeks after your marthon assuming you run
the marathon as you say, as a training run.
>
> I'm just looking to finish the 50K and have fun with it, not set any
> speed records.
>
> My thought would be to do long runs of
>
> 26, 16, 9, 50K

Do you really recover fast enough after a 26 mile run on one weekend to
do 16 the next? I would suggest at best 10-12.
You want to go into the race recovered not recovering.

-DF

09-03-2004, 07:21 PM

Harold, I mis-read your post. I thought you were "racing" the marathon.
Its hard to do a race slow enough to be a training run, but maybe a marathon
is long enough so you won't get too swept up; good luck. In that case, 3
weeks is the same taper I chose for my 50k from my long training run of 27
miles.

- Tony

09-03-2004, 07:50 PM

In article <JE9_c.115$2H5.105@trndny07>,
"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote:

> Harold, I mis-read your post. I thought you were "racing" the marathon.
> Its hard to do a race slow enough to be a training run, but maybe a marathon
> is long enough so you won't get too swept up; good luck. In that case, 3
> weeks is the same taper I chose for my 50k from my long training run of 27
> miles.

Thanks for clarifying. I think I can keep it under control during the
marathon--I'm figuring I could break 4 hours if I tried, so I'm going to
shoot for 4:20.

What did you do for your long runs 2 weeks before and 1 week before the
50k?

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

09-03-2004, 09:45 PM

"Harold Buck" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote

> My thought would be to do long runs of
>
> 26, 16, 9, 50K
>
> 26, 18, 15, 9, 50K
>
> 26, 10, 18, 15, 9, 50K
>
> on the weekends, where 26 represents the Marathon and 50K represents the
> Ultra.

I've done a bunch of ultras in the 50k to 50mile range going back to 1981.
(4 so far this year, and a 50m next month, and one more before year-end).

First off, don't do a training run that takes more than a few days to
recover from.
If the 26 miler is done at a pace where you don't feel back to normal by
Wednesday, it was a) too many miles for your base or b) too fast.

I rarely do a run on Saturday that prevents me from doing a strong workout
on Tuesday, for example. I might take Sunday off, then easy on Monday, but
I'm ready to go to work Tuesday. To do otherwise (at least for sub-100
mile races) is overtraining, imo.

My rule of thumb for training runs is to get one run of 2/3 of the race
duration (in time) 3 or 4 weeks prior to the race. If the 50k is projected
to take you 6 hours, do a 4 hour run. If your guess is 8, do a 5.5 to 6
hour run. Walking uphills is permitted...

By this definition, your 4:20 marathon is a good training run for a 6:30
50k, *provided* you run it easy enough so that you tanned, rested, and ready
my midweek.

Go for a 2 week taper. If you're healthy and uninjured, you don't need 4
weeks to taper! You'll get out of shape instead. I had good results on a 6
day taper when younger, and now that I'm 52, I start 8 - 10 days out, with a
2/3 of my normal long run the Saturday before the race. (For me that's
substituting moderate-to-brisk 14 miler instead of my preferred 20-22
miler).

Personally, I'd forget the marathon -- they're so dull and crowded. The
pavement pounding beats you up. Hook up with some ultra types, and go on
long runs in the trails and unpaved roads with them. You'll need to learn
alot, and picking the pros' brains on a long run is the perfect way to get
up to speed. I strongly suggest that you pick an all-unpaved 50k. Much
easier on the legs, and more interesting, even if there are more hills.

Once you get hooked, the road races are just speedwork...

Good luck,

Dan

09-03-2004, 09:45 PM

"Harold Buck" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote

> My thought would be to do long runs of
>
> 26, 16, 9, 50K
>
> 26, 18, 15, 9, 50K
>
> 26, 10, 18, 15, 9, 50K
>
> on the weekends, where 26 represents the Marathon and 50K represents the
> Ultra.

I've done a bunch of ultras in the 50k to 50mile range going back to 1981.
(4 so far this year, and a 50m next month, and one more before year-end).

First off, don't do a training run that takes more than a few days to
recover from.
If the 26 miler is done at a pace where you don't feel back to normal by
Wednesday, it was a) too many miles for your base or b) too fast.

I rarely do a run on Saturday that prevents me from doing a strong workout
on Tuesday, for example. I might take Sunday off, then easy on Monday, but
I'm ready to go to work Tuesday. To do otherwise (at least for sub-100
mile races) is overtraining, imo.

My rule of thumb for training runs is to get one run of 2/3 of the race
duration (in time) 3 or 4 weeks prior to the race. If the 50k is projected
to take you 6 hours, do a 4 hour run. If your guess is 8, do a 5.5 to 6
hour run. Walking uphills is permitted...

By this definition, your 4:20 marathon is a good training run for a 6:30
50k, *provided* you run it easy enough so that you tanned, rested, and ready
my midweek.

Go for a 2 week taper. If you're healthy and uninjured, you don't need 4
weeks to taper! You'll get out of shape instead. I had good results on a 6
day taper when younger, and now that I'm 52, I start 8 - 10 days out, with a
2/3 of my normal long run the Saturday before the race. (For me that's
substituting moderate-to-brisk 14 miler instead of my preferred 20-22
miler).

Personally, I'd forget the marathon -- they're so dull and crowded. The
pavement pounding beats you up. Hook up with some ultra types, and go on
long runs in the trails and unpaved roads with them. You'll need to learn
alot, and picking the pros' brains on a long run is the perfect way to get
up to speed. I strongly suggest that you pick an all-unpaved 50k. Much
easier on the legs, and more interesting, even if there are more hills.

Once you get hooked, the road races are just speedwork...

Good luck,

Dan

09-04-2004, 03:58 AM

Harold Buck wrote:
> I'm planning to do my first 50K Ultra this fall, and I was wondering
> what makes the most sense for a taper. I'm doing the Milwaukee
> Marathon on October 3 as a long training run, and then I have a
> choice of 3 different 50K races either 3, 4, or 5 weeks later.

My first thought would be "Which 50K do you *really* want to do?"

Not all races are equal and while it sounds like you're a little spoiled for
choice I'd go for the most scenic trail ultra I could find.

Just look for the one with the least road and most contours, then make your
plans, ;-)

Tim

--
Remove the obvious to reply by email.

09-04-2004, 04:26 AM

"Dan Stumpus" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:KLb_c.6968$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].pas.earthl ink.net...
>
> "Harold Buck" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote
>
> I've done a bunch of ultras in the 50k to 50mile range going back to
> 1981.
> (4 so far this year, and a 50m next month, and one more before
> year-end).

I got a couple also.

>
> First off, don't do a training run that takes more than a few days to
> recover from.

Agree, KNOW THY RECOVERY!!!!!

> My rule of thumb for training runs is to get one run of 2/3 of the
> race
> duration (in time) 3 or 4 weeks prior to the race. If the 50k is
> projected
> to take you 6 hours, do a 4 hour run. If your guess is 8, do a 5.5 to
> 6
> hour run. Walking uphills is permitted...

Good guideline through 50 miles.

> Go for a 2 week taper. If you're healthy and uninjured, you don't
> need 4
> weeks to taper!

This is not an easy call. Sure, you and I can go off two weeks but the
only the Buckster knows his recovery rate. If any doubt I would go for
three. The third taper week will not hurt. If he needs four then he is
no where ready for this race.

> I strongly suggest that you pick an all-unpaved 50k. Much
> easier on the legs, and more interesting, even if there are more
> hills.

I meant to raise this at the beginning- if you still haven't decided on
what race to do and whether road or trail, then how were you training?
We usually pick the race, study the terrain and train for that race.
Fancy term specificity. A 50k on the roads with 2,000 of elevation
change is light years different than 50k trail run with 5,000 feet on
ungraded, uneven, single track. Training on roads for a trail race and
vice versa will likely make race day somewhere between unpleasant and
DNF.

> Once you get hooked, the road races are just speedwork...

I leave snow tires on my van all year so I can drive on back shitty
dirt roads to get to some trail heads. :) :)

-DougF

09-04-2004, 10:25 AM

Harold Buck wrote in message ...
>In article <JE9_c.115$2H5.105@trndny07>,
> "Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Harold, I mis-read your post. I thought you were "racing" the marathon.
>> Its hard to do a race slow enough to be a training run, but maybe a
marathon
>> is long enough so you won't get too swept up; good luck. In that case, 3
>> weeks is the same taper I chose for my 50k from my long training run of
27
>> miles.
>
>
>Thanks for clarifying. I think I can keep it under control during the
>marathon--I'm figuring I could break 4 hours if I tried, so I'm going to
>shoot for 4:20.
>
>What did you do for your long runs 2 weeks before and 1 week before the
>50k?
>

Well my training is abnormal so don't listen to me. I just do cross
training and only run 3 times a week, and bike 3 times. I don't do a
"long" run every weekend, but only every 3 weeks. Normally I will run 50 to
80 mins, and my long runs have been 3 1/2 to 6 hours. Sometimes on the
weekend I will run 2 hours, but these 2 weeks before my 50k I did 50 mins
last weekend, and today I plan to go about 60-70 mins on trails. I don't
seem to suffer any setback going long every 3 weeks only. In fact each of
my long runs has been much better than the last one.

- Tony

09-04-2004, 10:43 AM

In article <xDh_c.3940$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].rr.com>,
"Doug Freese" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].com> wrote:

> > I strongly suggest that you pick an all-unpaved 50k. Much
> > easier on the legs, and more interesting, even if there are more
> > hills.
>
> I meant to raise this at the beginning- if you still haven't decided on
> what race to do and whether road or trail, then how were you training?

I've been training mostly on trails, although I have done an 18-mile run
on road. I had originally planned on doing the race 5 weeks from my
Marathon, but then couldn't find any info about it when I went to
register and started looking for other options. Then I found out that
the original race was still on, just poorly advertised, and now I need
to pick one.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

09-04-2004, 12:27 PM

"Harold Buck" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].giganews.com...
> I've been training mostly on trails, although I have done an 18-mile
> run
> on road. I had originally planned on doing the race 5 weeks from my
> Marathon, but then couldn't find any info about it when I went to
> register and started looking for other options. Then I found out that
> the original race was still on, just poorly advertised, and now I need
> to pick one.

Which race?

-DF

09-04-2004, 12:54 PM

In article <mGo_c.31144$[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].rr.com>,
"Doug Freese" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].com> wrote:

> "Harold Buck" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
> news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].giganews.com...
> > I've been training mostly on trails, although I have done an 18-mile
> > run
> > on road. I had originally planned on doing the race 5 weeks from my
> > Marathon, but then couldn't find any info about it when I went to
> > register and started looking for other options. Then I found out that
> > the original race was still on, just poorly advertised, and now I need
> > to pick one.
>
>
> Which race?

The options are the Stone Steps, outside of Cincinnati on 10/24 (2nd
year race), the Lakefront 50/50 in Chicago on 10/30, or the Owen-Putnam
50/50 Trail Run in Spencer, IN, on 11/6.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

09-04-2004, 06:24 PM

Tim Downie wrote:
> Harold Buck wrote:
>
>>I'm planning to do my first 50K Ultra this fall, and I was wondering
>>what makes the most sense for a taper. I'm doing the Milwaukee
>>Marathon on October 3 as a long training run, and then I have a
>>choice of 3 different 50K races either 3, 4, or 5 weeks later.
>
>
> My first thought would be "Which 50K do you *really* want to do?"
>
> Not all races are equal and while it sounds like you're a little spoiled for
> choice I'd go for the most scenic trail ultra I could find.
>
> Just look for the one with the least road and most contours, then make your
> plans, ;-)
>
> Tim

Excellent advice :)

Dot

--
"You try to slow down and enjoy it. You try to look at the scenery. But
your brain can kind of go blank. All you want to do is tell your feet to
keep working."
-Cedar Petrosius, women's winner 2004 Matanuska Peak Challenge (14mi,
9000ft up and down)

09-07-2004, 09:35 AM

Though I'd never run one myself, I am married to an ultrarunner and
know a whole bunch more (it's a bit of a community). My two cents
(about all its worth). The first two things more untrarunners would
tell you:

1) There is no "book" on ultra running, no standard training formula.
Everyone just has to find what works for them and do it.

2) That said, pretty much everyone agrees that ultras *aren't* long
marathons. Taking a marathon training schedule and stretching it out
isn't the way to go. Ultras are different creatures altogether. In a
marathon, you are training your body to cover 26 miles as fast as you
possibly can, spending your last ounce of energy just as you finish.
An ultra isn't like that at all. It's a big LSD run. Miles 5, 15, 25,
whatever should feel about the same. (Note, this assumes you are just
running an ultra, not racing one.)

As for the taper thing, most ultrarunners would rest anywhere from
none to three weeks before the race. Note the word rest, not taper. I
don't know any ultrarunners who do the build up / build down thing you
do in a marathon training schedule.

If you've got a solid based of 50+ miles / week and have done many 20
mile runs for your marathon preps, you've probably got all the running
training you need, so I wouldn't worry about that. Probably better to
focus on work you may need with nutrition/hydration as well as pacing.
Learn to run slow. Build up the uphill walking muscles, etc.