Jack Daniels' Running Formula - Triathlon Week

11-03-2004, 05:32 AM

No, this is not a new concept in sports drinks, it's a book about run
training. It seems to be pretty good to me so far. The basic idea is
that you estimate your VO2-max based on race performance and then set
your training paces based on that. It tells me, for example, that I
should be doing my long/easy runs at a faster pace than I've been doing,
which I've suspected for some time.

Does anyone have any comments on this book or its training methods?

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

11-03-2004, 05:44 AM

In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].co.uk>, [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
writes
>In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].giganews.com>, Harold
>Buck wrote:
>> No, this is not a new concept in sports drinks, it's a book about run
>> training. It seems to be pretty good to me so far. The basic idea is
>> that you estimate your VO2-max based on race performance and then set
>> your training paces based on that. It tells me, for example, that I
>> should be doing my long/easy runs at a faster pace than I've been doing,
>> which I've suspected for some time.
>
>> Does anyone have any comments on this book or its training methods?
>
>I think it's a great book and am following one of the marathon training
>plans. However, it's not estimating your VO2max, it uses a concept of VDOT
>which is a combination of your VO2max and running ecomomy. I can't offer
>any concrete proof that the training methods work as I've only just
>started following it, but I'm pretty confident it will.
>
>BTW, there's a new edition out this month.

Don't say that - it sounds like he's just bought the old edition! It's
just cruel when someone has a fun new toy to tell them there's a better
one coming out next week.
--
Mel Rimmer

11-03-2004, 05:46 AM

In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].giganews.com>, Harold Buck wrote:
> No, this is not a new concept in sports drinks, it's a book about run
> training. It seems to be pretty good to me so far. The basic idea is
> that you estimate your VO2-max based on race performance and then set
> your training paces based on that. It tells me, for example, that I
> should be doing my long/easy runs at a faster pace than I've been doing,
> which I've suspected for some time.

> Does anyone have any comments on this book or its training methods?

I think it's a great book and am following one of the marathon training
plans. However, it's not estimating your VO2max, it uses a concept of VDOT
which is a combination of your VO2max and running ecomomy. I can't offer
any concrete proof that the training methods work as I've only just
started following it, but I'm pretty confident it will.

BTW, there's a new edition out this month.

Paul

11-03-2004, 06:15 AM

"Harold Buck" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].giganews.com...
> No, this is not a new concept in sports drinks, it's a book about run
> training. It seems to be pretty good to me so far. The basic idea is
> that you estimate your VO2-max based on race performance and then set
> your training paces based on that. It tells me, for example, that I
> should be doing my long/easy runs at a faster pace than I've been doing,
> which I've suspected for some time.

Just out of interest, what pace does it recommend for long runs for someone
running 40ish miles a week with a 5k time of 19:35 and a 1/2 M time of 1:31?

Tim

11-03-2004, 06:29 AM

In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>, Tim Downie wrote:
>
> "Harold Buck" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
> news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].giganews.com...
>> No, this is not a new concept in sports drinks, it's a book about run
>> training. It seems to be pretty good to me so far. The basic idea is
>> that you estimate your VO2-max based on race performance and then set
>> your training paces based on that. It tells me, for example, that I
>> should be doing my long/easy runs at a faster pace than I've been doing,
>> which I've suspected for some time.
>
> Just out of interest, what pace does it recommend for long runs for someone
> running 40ish miles a week with a 5k time of 19:35 and a 1/2 M time of 1:31?

Your 5k gives you a VDOT of 51 (50 from HM)

Paces for VDOT 51:

Easy/Long: 8:07
MP 7:09
T pace 400: 1:40, 1000: 4:11, mile: 6:44
I pace 400: 92, 1000: 3:51, 1200: 4:36
R pace 200: 42, 400: 86

Paul

11-03-2004, 06:43 AM

<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].co.uk> wrote in message
news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].co.uk...
> In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>, Tim Downie wrote:
> >
> > "Harold Buck" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
> > news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].giganews.com...
> >> No, this is not a new concept in sports drinks, it's a book about run
> >> training. It seems to be pretty good to me so far. The basic idea is
> >> that you estimate your VO2-max based on race performance and then set
> >> your training paces based on that. It tells me, for example, that I
> >> should be doing my long/easy runs at a faster pace than I've been
doing,
> >> which I've suspected for some time.
> >
> > Just out of interest, what pace does it recommend for long runs for
someone
> > running 40ish miles a week with a 5k time of 19:35 and a 1/2 M time of
1:31?
>
> Your 5k gives you a VDOT of 51 (50 from HM)
>
> Paces for VDOT 51:
>
> Easy/Long: 8:07

Hmm.. quite a bit faster than I usually go (normally 8:45ish) but I did do
my LSD last Sunday at 8:13 pace. The main reason I think I ran faster this
weekend was that I was running after dark in the evening rather than my
usual morning run. Not sure my body would cooperate in the morning. ;-)

> MP 7:09

Lets see, that's works out to about 3:10 for a full marathon? I suppose
that's a number I could shoot for.

> T pace 400: 1:40, 1000: 4:11, mile: 6:44
> I pace 400: 92, 1000: 3:51, 1200: 4:36
> R pace 200: 42, 400: 86

You'll have to explaing the TIR business. I'm guessing "R" isn't my
recovery pace for intervals. ;-)

Of course, I could just buy the book. Unfortunately, now that you've said
that there's a new edition coming out I'll have to wait till Christmas.

Cheers.

Tim

11-03-2004, 06:55 AM

In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>,
Mel Rimmer <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].uk> wrote:

> >
> >BTW, there's a new edition out this month.
>
> Don't say that - it sounds like he's just bought the old edition! It's
> just cruel when someone has a fun new toy to tell them there's a better
> one coming out next week.

Yeah, but I got mine at a used bookstore for $8.50. I can't imagine the
new version is less than $20.00, so I'm not too bummed.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

11-03-2004, 06:58 AM

In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>, Tim Downie wrote:

><[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].co.uk> wrote in message

>> Paces for VDOT 51:

>> Easy/Long: 8:07

> Hmm.. quite a bit faster than I usually go (normally 8:45ish) but I did do
> my LSD last Sunday at 8:13 pace. The main reason I think I ran faster this
> weekend was that I was running after dark in the evening rather than my
> usual morning run. Not sure my body would cooperate in the morning. ;-)

I thought that the easy pace was a bit fast too, but previously I was running
at 70%WHR. I'm going to try and maintain the Daniels' rates through my marathon
training though.

>> MP 7:09

> Lets see, that's works out to about 3:10 for a full marathon? I suppose
> that's a number I could shoot for.

And why not?

>> T pace 400: 1:40, 1000: 4:11, mile: 6:44
>> I pace 400: 92, 1000: 3:51, 1200: 4:36
>> R pace 200: 42, 400: 86

> You'll have to explaing the TIR business. I'm guessing "R" isn't my
> recovery pace for intervals. ;-)

T is threshold pace for tempo runs and cruise intervals. Daniels' tempo runs are
ideally 20 minute runs at T pace. Cruise intervals are 3-10 minute repeats with
1 minute or less recovery.

I pace is for intervals at the above distance with recovery time equal to or
a little less than the run time.

R pace is for repetitions with full recovery inbetween repeats.

> Of course, I could just buy the book. Unfortunately, now that you've said
> that there's a new edition coming out I'll have to wait till Christmas.

Mine's on order from amazon, due this week so they say.

Paul

11-03-2004, 07:35 AM

<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].co.uk> wrote in message
news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].co.uk...
> In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>, Tim Downie wrote:
>
> ><[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].co.uk> wrote in message
<snip>

Thanks for the info.

> > Of course, I could just buy the book. Unfortunately, now that you've
said
> > that there's a new edition coming out I'll have to wait till Christmas.
>
> Mine's on order from amazon, due this week so they say.

When I looked they were advertising the 1998 edition. Do you have a link to
a newer edition?

Tim

11-03-2004, 07:57 AM

In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>, Tim Downie wrote:
> When I looked they were advertising the 1998 edition. Do you have a link to
> a newer edition?

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

I ordered a copy a couple of weeks ago and it didn't have that extra 2 quid
though.

Paul

11-03-2004, 08:15 AM

In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].co.uk>,
<[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].co.uk> wrote:
>In article
><[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].giganews.com>, Harold
>Buck wrote:
>> No, this is not a new concept in sports drinks, it's a book about run
>> training. It seems to be pretty good to me so far. The basic idea is
>> that you estimate your VO2-max based on race performance and then set
>> your training paces based on that. It tells me, for example, that I
>> should be doing my long/easy runs at a faster pace than I've been doing,
>> which I've suspected for some time.
>
>> Does anyone have any comments on this book or its training methods?
>
>I think it's a great book and am following one of the marathon training
>plans. However, it's not estimating your VO2max, it uses a concept of VDOT
>which is a combination of your VO2max and running ecomomy. I can't offer
>any concrete proof that the training methods work as I've only just
>started following it, but I'm pretty confident it will.
>
>BTW, there's a new edition out this month.

I think Vdot is velocity at VO2max, i.e, how fast you're going when you're
going fast. (Even though vdot sounds as if it ought to mean acceleration.)

I like JD's book, and his tables work very well at predicting my own
performances. So well, in fact, that I don't even bother doing the races
anymore. I just enter the number from JD's table in my running log and spend
the extra time on the golf course.

--
************************************************** **********************
Terry R. McConnell Mathematics/215 Carnegie/Syracuse, N.Y. 13244-1150
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] 229B Physics Bldg [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
************************************************** **********************

11-03-2004, 08:25 AM

"Harold Buck" <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]> wrote in message
news:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].giganews.com...
> In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]>,
> Mel Rimmer <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].uk> wrote:
>
>> >
>> >BTW, there's a new edition out this month.
>>
>> Don't say that - it sounds like he's just bought the old edition!
>> It's
>> just cruel when someone has a fun new toy to tell them there's a
>> better
>> one coming out next week.
>
>
> Yeah, but I got mine at a used bookstore for $8.50. I can't imagine
> the
> new version is less than $20.00, so I'm not too bummed.

$13.27 on Amazon. Throw in some S&H and not to bad.

-DF

11-03-2004, 08:26 AM

Harold Buck wrote in message ...
>No, this is not a new concept in sports drinks, it's a book about run
>training. It seems to be pretty good to me so far. The basic idea is
>that you estimate your VO2-max based on race performance and then set
>your training paces based on that. It tells me, for example, that I
>should be doing my long/easy runs at a faster pace than I've been doing,
>which I've suspected for some time.
>
>Does anyone have any comments on this book or its training methods?

I looked over this book (didn't read the entire thing or try it's program)
and it seems very good for runners who want to compete to their best
potential in road races. As someone who trains mostly on trails I don't
find it as useful.

Also I found it far too programmed for my personal taste. I'd rather
program myself based on what I learn than be programmed by someone else's
"formula". To me running loses much of it's appeal if you take the art ouf
of it.

-Tony

11-03-2004, 08:29 AM

On 2004-11-03, Tim Downie <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].uk> wrote:
>

> Hmm.. quite a bit faster than I usually go (normally 8:45ish) but I did do
> my LSD last Sunday at 8:13 pace. The main reason I think I ran faster this
> weekend was that I was running after dark in the evening rather than my
> usual morning run. Not sure my body would cooperate in the morning. ;-)
>
>> MP 7:09
>
> Lets see, that's works out to about 3:10 for a full marathon? I suppose
> that's a number I could shoot for.
>
>> T pace 400: 1:40, 1000: 4:11, mile: 6:44
>> I pace 400: 92, 1000: 3:51, 1200: 4:36
>> R pace 200: 42, 400: 86
>
> You'll have to explaing the TIR business. I'm guessing "R" isn't my
> recovery pace for intervals. ;-)
>
> Of course, I could just buy the book. Unfortunately, now that you've said
> that there's a new edition coming out I'll have to wait till Christmas.

BTW, I have a vdot calculator on my webpage

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

The book is well worth a read anyway though.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

11-03-2004, 08:30 AM

On 2004-11-03, [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].co.uk> wrote:
> In article <[Only registered and activated users can see links. ].giganews.com>, Harold Buck wrote:
>> No, this is not a new concept in sports drinks, it's a book about run
>> training. It seems to be pretty good to me so far. The basic idea is
>> that you estimate your VO2-max based on race performance and then set
>> your training paces based on that. It tells me, for example, that I
>> should be doing my long/easy runs at a faster pace than I've been doing,
>> which I've suspected for some time.
>
>> Does anyone have any comments on this book or its training methods?
>
> I think it's a great book and am following one of the marathon training
> plans. However, it's not estimating your VO2max, it uses a concept of VDOT
> which is a combination of your VO2max and running ecomomy. I can't offer
> any concrete proof that the training methods work as I've only just
> started following it, but I'm pretty confident it will.
>
> BTW, there's a new edition out this month.

I followed it for a while and had good results. You may slow down a little in
phase 3, but when you hit phase 4 you really start to fly (especially if you
do a slight milage drop as he recommends)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]